RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#101 Post by FD2 » Thu May 09, 2024 8:24 pm

Thank God we have Capita to guard against white, privileged blokes like this from joining! Computer says no.
What a bloody shambles. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... r-britain/
There are young officers passing out at the parade, ranking from midshipmen through sub lieutenants to a lieutenant, the rank of cadet has not existed for years. I think it was considered demeaning for today's youths.

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The Navy is turning away people who are ready and willing to fight for Britain

Last year I tried to join the Senior Service. After a 10 months wait, I was turned down for not having A levels, despite a 1st class degree

Louis Court
9 May 2024 • 12:49pm
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Passing Out Parade.png
Passing Out Parade.png (233.25 KiB) Viewed 392 times

Royal Navy Cadets at the Lord High Admiral's Divisions at the Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth. The Prince of Wales today viewed a parade of 202 Royal Navy Cadets passing out at the college
Passing out parade: Royal Navy Cadets at the Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth Credit: Chris Jackson/PA

As the world enters a new and dangerous phase, it seems as if Britain has been caught napping. Russia’s savage invasion of Ukraine continues apace, China sabre rattles over Taiwan, and Iran’s Houthi proxies ensure that Red Sea shipping succeeds only under the watchful eye of western warships.

The British government, apparently operating under a policy of “better late than never”, finally appears to have woken up. After decades of cuts, winnowing the armed forces down to a fraction of their former size, Rishi Sunak announced that defence spending will reach 2.5 per cent of GDP by 2030.

This was quickly followed by the news that Britain would produce its own hypersonic missiles by 2030, coming on top of existing plans to develop a “sixth generation” fighter jet of our own.

And yet, despite the increased investment and shiny new equipment in the pipeline, the question of who will operate it all remains a sticking point for the MOD. In the last decade, 800,000 applicants have withdrawn from the process.

The past year alone has seen 74,000 (roughly the entire current complement of the army) do likewise. My own experience of applying for the Royal Navy confirmed that, for the armed forces to rebuild, they’re going to have to do much better.

Last year, finding myself financially pinched and keen on adventure, I decided to have a go at joining the Senior Service. Naively, I presumed I would be a shoo-in. After all, I had been raised on a rich diet of naval yarns spun by my ex-RNR commander grandfather, shivered under canvas as an (admittedly sub-par) Royal Marine cadet, and spent many a morning furiously polishing shoes as a student at the Royal Hospital School, an anachronistic military school in Suffolk.

After an online search, I submitted a request for an application form for the role of Warfare Intelligence Officer. And then, nothing. No confirmation email, no application number, and no form. A week later, I tried again. Once more, nothing. Perhaps, I mused, there was some sort of backlog. I waited again, this time for 9 months. Nothing. I emailed the recruiting centre and finally received my form.

A week or so after submitting my application, I received a call from an employee of Capita, an outsourcing firm “delivering innovative, digitally enabled solutions to transform and simplify the connections between government and citizens” working on behalf of the MOD.

It was clear from the outset that they had not read my application, nor, judging from their tone, did they care. As they asked me a series of questions I had already answered on the form, I was vividly reminded of every interminable phone call I had ever made to a call centre; the same indistinct voice of disinterest nasally going through the motions of civility before informing me, without an iota of sincerity, that they were “sorry, but my application could not proceed”.

The role I had applied for “required A levels”, which I do not have.

I protested: I had taken a slightly circuitous route to higher education, but surely my first-class BA and MSc, both from Russell Group universities, trumped the 72 UCAS points officially needed? Alas not. The computer said A levels, and I didn’t have them, so the computer said no, and my 10 month-long application was at an end.

People apply to the armed forces for a variety of reasons, but all must do so with some idea that they are sacrificing something, be that pay, family, freedom, or personal safety. They are, in simple terms, offering to give something up to protect all of us in a rapidly worsening world.

As it stands, those offering that sacrifice are met with possibly the worst recruitment service in the country, filled with interminable waits, pointless forms, and the sort of bureaucratic inflexibility which would make even the most committed candidate question the point of continuing.

If Britain is to rebuild its armed forces, then money, kit, and renewed purpose will only take it so far. We cannot continue to discard 800,000 applicants a decade through an incompetent, inflexible, and insincere approach to recruiting.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#102 Post by G-CPTN » Thu May 09, 2024 8:46 pm

A similar situation occurred with my wife.
As a teenager she had gained a diploma in librarianship and worked as a school librarian.
After taking a 'career break' to raise a family, she decide to update her skills with a degree in library studies.
Failing to find employment as a librarian she offered her services to a university library as a 'shelver', only to be rejected as she didn't have 'City and Guilds'.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#103 Post by llondel » Thu May 09, 2024 9:00 pm

I remember reading about someone who had a maths A-level but for some reason didn't have an O-level in the subject and was turned down for a job.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#104 Post by CharlieOneSix » Thu May 09, 2024 10:00 pm

Thank goodness he was sussed out before taxpayers' money was wasted on him. With his complete lack of Oily Qs he would never have lasted the course at Dartmouth.
Decided to have a go at joining the Sernior Service

Oh, just the right kind of attitude - NOT! Surely they still have an Admiralty Interview Board and don't just rely on Capita for successful candidates.
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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#105 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu May 09, 2024 10:43 pm

My classic was having the Weapons (including nuclear) Employment Course, NBC Instructor, and a Physics degree, and I'd done some work at Harwell, but still having to do the one day school radiation source supervisor course. Utter waste of everyone's time.
But that's box-ticking (or not) for you!

..and then one had to find an Inspector, of which there were only about 5 in the UK. Four of them had about 50 schools each, but fortunately the guy in Norn Iron agreed to take on everyone else, about a thousand schools, "as long as you understand I'll never visit and can't answer questions". I guess they dared not sack him.

And you had to tell the local Fire Brigade, who never wanted to know, and always refused to put anything in writing that they didn't want to know.

And you couldn't get rid of them either. No one would accept them for disposal (no funding), and you weren't allowed to just chuck them in the bin, even the Am-241 at life-expired, although it was legal to chuck smoke detectors with the same amount in the bin.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#106 Post by FD2 » Thu May 09, 2024 11:10 pm

I think Capita is the only organisation involved nowadays.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#107 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu May 09, 2024 11:36 pm

Canada's Navy is in a worse state, and it still recruits directly, so Crapita on its own is not the major part of the problem
(although it isn't achieving anything at great expense).

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... lso-has-a/

I did look at joining the local Naval Cadet Force, but 90% of the job now is processing one's own courses and paperwork to do the other 10%.
That 90% is accurate - I spent one evening observing the serving officers.

Two years ago they decided to let Permanent Residents, not just Citizens, join. Out of 7,000 accepted applications, exactly 76 have started training.
The reason is an 18-24 month backlog on security checks.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#108 Post by llondel » Fri May 10, 2024 1:07 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 10:43 pm
My classic was having the Weapons (including nuclear) Employment Course, NBC Instructor, and a Physics degree, and I'd done some work at Harwell, but still having to do the one day school radiation source supervisor course. Utter waste of everyone's time.
But that's box-ticking (or not) for you!
My post-course feedback once:
What did you expect to gain from this course? Nothing
What did you gain from this course? Nothing

I'd pointed out beforehand that I was already way past the level the course was pitched at but it was decreed that I should attend. Mainly because I think that meant I was charging to someone else's budget for the duration, rather than any actual perceived benefit to me.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#109 Post by 1DC » Fri May 10, 2024 1:31 pm

Friends daughter was number two in a fairly large admin department in the local council, her boss was retiring and she was getting promoted to head of department. Two months before it happened the council employed a fancy organisation to reorganise the council departments. Her department was reorganised and included positions having nominated degree qualifications, this meant that because friends daughter didn't have the new degree qualifications required she would have to drop down to number three in the department and a new boss would have to be recruited from outside. She was then asked to take six months shadowing the new boss to teach him how to do the job, when she told them she wouldn't do it she was accused of being unreasonable! She now works for another organisation on better terms and conditions!

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#110 Post by Woody » Tue May 14, 2024 11:09 am

I’m sure that all these shiny new ships will look great tied up as they’re short of crews!

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/uk-to-ge ... s-13135610
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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#111 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 14, 2024 12:48 pm

The objectives of Ministry of Defence spending are to ensure the prosperity of senior MoD civil servants and their friends running defence industries, and it has always been thus.
Buying stuff is therefore what is needed, not actually using it.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#112 Post by FD2 » Tue May 14, 2024 8:03 pm

As far as I know they are not training bootnecks to drive these things so back to square one - where will they find the RN crews? About the only thing that's likely to drive up recruiting now as a conflict - maybe in the Red Sea or Persian Gulf - which gets the lads and lasses out of Wetherspoons and volunteering. It still takes some time to train them up, if they can pass the fitness tests that is.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#113 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 14, 2024 8:17 pm

Only if they think their country is worth defending, and which rules out the young white males since their government hates them.
And if they think the war is winnable, which given all the recent ones weren't....
And their country will value them, which given the attitude of the media to the military, and Ministries of Defence to providing service personnel with half-decent accommodation, pay, pensions, not putting them on trial for murder 50 years later ( and after they've let all the terrorist they were shooting at off scot-free)......
Etc.
These are the real reasons recruiting is pitiful in all western countries, and the media and the governments are pretending none of these are even a problem.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#114 Post by FD2 » Tue May 14, 2024 8:24 pm

Royal Marines’ new ships will have much smaller crews, First Sea Lord reveals

Admiral Sir Ben Key said new Multi Role Support Ships will need a company about a quarter of the size of the previous vessels

Danielle Sheridan, Defence Editor 14 May 2024 • 8:50pm

The First Sea Lord said the Royal Marines’ new ships will have crews a quarter of the size of its former vessels.

The Telegraph revealed on Monday that Royal Marines are to get up to six new Multi Role Support Ships (MRSS) from which drones can be launched and laser weapons fired.

Admiral Sir Ben Key said “it would be bizarre if we weren’t producing ships with smaller ships companies” after Grant Shapps announced the plan.

The new vessels will replace the ageing HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark amphibious assault ships, as well as RFA Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay and Cardigan Bay.

Speaking to journalists at Lancaster House, Sir Ben said of the MRSS: “I would anticipate that the crew of that will be much smaller than the crew of Albion or Bulwark, which is about 400.”

He said it would be a “mistake” to suggest there would be a possible crew of 250.

A senior Navy source added that while the designs of the new ships needed to be settled on, the numbers for crews “will settle about 120 – 130”. “When you take a ships’ company below that you really start to struggle,” the source said.
Illustration of the Multi Role Support Ships from which drones can be launched and laser weapons fired


One problem might be that these ships were supposed to be manned by civilian RFA crews. Albion and Bulwark are in mothballs through lack of crews. Those two were supposed to conduct the opposed landing and secure the beach head before these new ships could safely go in and discharge their troops. If they can't find 400 for Albion and Bulwark I dare say they won't be much more successful finding 6 times 250 RFA people. They are also staying ashore because that's their right as merchant seamen which is a great shame as they've been such an integral part of operations afloat for so many years and are a marvelous bunch.

Any fewer people crewing these ships and they'll need to train up some dogs to help before they get down to one man and his dog!

Fox - agree +1

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#115 Post by FD2 » Tue May 14, 2024 8:29 pm

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New ships for the Royal Marines is great news. But some serious problems must be solved first


You can’t ask Serco to find you a laser raygunner at short notice

Lewis Page
14 May 2024 • 12:35pm
Lewis Page

The government’s announcement that the Royal Marines are to receive six new multi-role support ships (MRSS) is a welcome one – but there are some points to note about the plan which have not yet been made plain, and there are some serious problems which will need to be solved before the ships arrive.

The MRSSs will be replacing two Royal Navy warships, HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, and three civilian-manned Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) ships – RFAs Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay and Cardigan Bay.

The first point to note is that Albion and Bulwark are now both in “extended readiness” – that is, mothballed without any sailors. Given the Royal Navy’s current manpower crisis and the way ships deteriorate when left in mothballs, there has been a lot of uncertainty as to whether Albion or Bulwark will ever put to sea again.

The second point is that the Bay class RFAs were originally intended for a comparatively safe, follow-on role. An initial amphibious assault would be made by Albion and/or Bulwark. Once a beach had been taken and enemy forces pushed back, it would be safe for the almost unarmed Bay class to move in and land follow-on troops and supplies.


Lewis Page is a former Royal Navy officer. He has worked with the RFA on many occasions, and completed Commando training with the Royal Marines

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... auxiliary/

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#116 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sat May 18, 2024 12:52 pm

So in the event of a conflict would the RFA crews down tools and refuse to resupply the Royal Navy ships? Seems to me that like the military and Police this civilian outfit supporting the RN should not be permitted to take strike action..

From the Aberdeen Press & Journal today:
RFA strike.jpg
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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#117 Post by FD2 » Sat May 18, 2024 7:30 pm

I read recently that they are not allowed to strike when at sea, only vote to take 'industrial action' when secured in port, which the P&J report shows. The ship which was built specifically to support the carriers is actually just short of crew due to recruiting problems. I can't ever recall hearing of these problems with the RFA in the past.

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#118 Post by G-CPTN » Sat May 18, 2024 7:54 pm

A few years ago I watched the 'last' (?) RFA vessel being launched from Swan Hunter's yard on the Tyne.

"Largs Bay was built by the Swan Hunter yard in Wallsend and launched for sea trials in November 2006, sailing into history as the last full vessel built on the Tyne."

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Re: RFA crew shortage as well as a Rear Admiral shortage....

#119 Post by FD2 » Sat May 18, 2024 8:15 pm

The sad end of a very fine tradition stretching back many years. https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/Swan-T ... story.html

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