The shooting of Yassar Yaqub

[Sisemen]

" In the UK, if a person is convicted of carrying a weapon with the intent of using it to take a life, then their life should be automatically forfeit, with minimum channels of appeal. "

Seems that the law in the UK is rapidly moving to that position - but only for members and ex-members of the armed forces!

[Boac]

Even with high quality legal systems, such as the UK, there are errors and innocent people have been put to death

I used to be a firm advocate of the death penalty, but the issue of mis-identifiction or flawed convictions have now set me against it. The judicial system needs to reflect the crime, and a 'sentence' should be served IN FULL with no 'time off' for 'finding God' or whatever. A 'life sentence' should be that - you die in prison - unless the conviction is overturned. 'Life' should be the automatic sentence for those crimes that would trigger a death sentence.

[Cacophonix]

Once again my view accords with Boac's entirely.

A sentence of whatever kind requires a just and due process that led up to that sentencing. What some here are proposing is a denigration, if not obliteration of due process, thereby eschewing justice and in such an environment no sentence can be trusted as being fair or equitable.

When people start to 'think' like that then we are back on the road to barbarianism. Fairly depressing stuff to read and a real shame to think that so called civilised people might choose such a dark course.

[om15]

Tricky one, if the guy was armed and en route to carry out some form of business involving the weapon it is understandable that the Police should intervene. The problem appears to be that, from what we are told, any drug baron that is sent to prison simply carries on trading in the prison and conducting his business from prison.
The first step is to regain control of prisons, stem the flow of drugs and mobile phones to the inmates and seal off the inmates from the outside world, then if anyone is caught with a weapon he/she automatically receives a life sentence.
I am opposed to the death penalty, either by formal execution or by shoot outs, but feel that there must be more of a deterrent to armed gangs and drug dealers. What everyone is avoiding saying is that the main challenges faced by the West Yorkshire Police in many areas stem from uncontrolled immigration from Pakistan and elsewhere.

[Capetonian]

Whilst I understand the concerns people have about 'summary' executions, I don't agree with them.

I don't believe in life sentences, because they rarely are that, and because there is an enormous cost to the state (i.e. taxpayer). A death penalty removes the offender permanently from society and provides a 100% guarantee that he will neither escape nor reoffend.

In the case of Yassar Yaqub, I don't think he was (technically) an immigrant, he was home-grown filth, and there's plenty of that around. His religion and ethnic background are entirely irrelevant.

Unfortunately the legal systems rarely have the power to mete out adequate sentences. The 12 year old niece of a friend of mine was sexually assaulted and beaten up in broad daylight, walking home from school in a good residential area of a city generally safe, by a known criminal who had been stalking her. She and her parents had advised the police who 'expressed concern' but were unable to do anything. After the assault she was offered an hour of 'counselling'. The criminal was given a course of 'rehabilitation'. Fortunately, he happened to find himself on the wrong side of town one night and was given a different sort of rehabilitation by some friends of the child's parents. and strange as it may seem, there were no witnesses and the police had no leads to investigate.

[OFSO]

Whilst I understand the concerns people have about 'summary' executions, I don't agree with them.

I do. As a firm believer in an afterlife (although I have no personal proof of what it will be like - yet) I think there's nothing finer than sending some creep unworthy person back to be recycled. As for comparing a life sentence - esp. in isolation for 23hrs a day - with instant death, I think the latter is preferable. Of course there's always Woody Allen's maxim: "I don't mind being dead, it's the dying that's the problem".

[Flame Lily FX]

Send them all on a one way ticket to Saudi where beheadings or cutting off your hands in Chop Chop Square in Riyadh each Friday for public entertainment is the norm. See how they like their own kind deal with them, as well as having the benefit of being close to their once in a lifetime trip to Mecca. What's not to like?

Let's see how the liberals here are going to answer how Saudi deals with their OG's (Original Gangstas).

What's the cost of a one way ticket on Pakistan Air to Riyadh from the UK these days?

I am not as green as what I am cabbage looking ya naw!

I had to laugh as last year I had to do Jury service and sat next to this Muslim **** who couldn't even speak English. What sort of British justice is that? He got handed his Koran to swear on. **** that ***** in British Courts of Justice. We are a Christian country. Even the Judge looked at him and thought....wayoh! He can't **** understand any evidence to give a verdict.

It turned out to be somewhat bitter-sweet as the young White British 25 year old male victim stood in the dock and declared to us how his Golliwog got stolen in the fracas - apart from being cut with glass on his face by his drunk friends. He then proceeded to tell us how we are not allowed to call them Golliwogs any more. **Geordie Jury all sniggered and shoulders were heaving** Judge kept looking down, as did the Barristers for plaintiff and defence. **** brilliant laff everrrrrrr!

Let us not forget that is was our Sunderland and south of the Tyne crew who secured us Brexit from sand-dancers. Brilliant!

[Flame Lily FX]

Here's the thing.

My mother joined the WAAF in WW2 at a very young age. She was born and brought up as one of 11 in Newcastle Upon Tyne. They all left school at 14 to go and work to bring money into the home. She had never seen a Black person ever until she was stationed in RAF West Kirby, so she had no preconceptions of them either way. She said they got some West Indians on the base, the first time she ever had seen a Black person, and she said they caused so much trouble and discontent amongst the lads there that the RSM had to get rid of them. This happened whilst all the White guys were being shipped out from Liverpool to Burma etc.

I think she was 16 at the time.

[Flame Lily FX]

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CS1cUIxBVg[/bbvideo]

[Airborne Aircrew]

Even with high quality legal systems, such as the UK, there are errors and innocent people have been put to death

I used to be a firm advocate of the death penalty, but the issue of mis-identifiction or flawed convictions have now set me against it. The judicial system needs to reflect the crime, and a 'sentence' should be served IN FULL with no 'time off' for 'finding God' or whatever. A 'life sentence' should be that - you die in prison - unless the conviction is overturned. 'Life' should be the automatic sentence for those crimes that would trigger a death sentence.

I can live with that but... Let their family be responsible for their upkeep and have them work hard labour while they are imprisoned. If the family can't keep them then let them wither and die... I, for one, do not wish to keep the scum in luxury at taxpayers expense.

[Boac]

keep the scum in luxury

- aye - therein is another problem. The huggy/fluffies have made prison just too nice for some. A regime of rock-breaking would not go amiss. Stuff the 'human rights' - they are foregone when you commit the crime.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Boac:

I have believed for many years that the moment a criminal chooses to break the law then s/he should have all their rights suspended until they are in the custody of law enforcement. It is they who are choosing to suspend their rights and it is they who can choose how easy and painless the return of those right will be.

But, apparently, that is a little too simple and direct for the lentil eaters.

[Cacophonix]

**** Airborne. We can't deal with his *****...

In opposition (he is not my oppo)...

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udF43v809-k[/bbvideo]

[Pinky the pilot]

given a different sort of rehabilitation by some friends of the child's parents. and strange as it may seem, there were no witnesses and the police had no leads to investigate.

A Happy Ending...sort of, then! Tell me Capetonian, Was the rehab given 'sufficient' to ensure that the Perp permanently mended his ways and now lives in the paths of Righteousness?

ie; Were a sufficient number of bones broken?

Well done to those concerned anyway!

[A Lutra Continua]

...The danger of allowing/encouraging summary executions is that the road to lawlessness is clear.

Summary execution? Isn't that wording a little excitable for someone stopped with what I'd consider reasonable force while attempting to violently evade police custody in a vehicle AIUI?

[OFSO]

Gents: at my advanced age I have lived and worked in a number of countries and through various terrorist times: the Red Brigades in Italy, Baader-Meinhof in Germany, various terrorist groups in France (one of whom, Action Direct, mistakenly blew up the European Space Agency's HQ in Paris), ETA in Spain and our own dear home-grown IRA in England.

When signalled to stop by police or when approaching a police roadblock (both currently a weekly event on Spanish roads) one slows the car gently, turns off headlamps if at night to avoid dazzling police, winds drivers window down, smiles nicely and say "good morning" or "good evening" as appropriate. Oh yes and occupants of car keep hands in sight and make no sudden movements.

So far this has not resulted in me being shot. I admit this is somewhat conciliatory, but these are nasty times, and I have no sympathy for anyone who hasn't come to realise what the rules of the game are, does something stupid and reaps the benefits thereof.

[Boac]

ALC

Isn't that wording a little excitable for someone stopped with what I'd consider reasonable force while attempting to violently evade police custody in a vehicle AIUI?

Obviously your AIUI is more than mine. On which facts do you base that comment, particularly "violently evade police custody"? Can you share them or are you in possession of restricted information? All I am aware of is that a number of (reportedly) unmarked police vehicles appear to have boxed two cars on a slip road. Perhaps you have camera footage?

I would also question your assertion that 3 bullets in the chest is 'reasonable force' for failing to pull over, if, indeed, that 'request' was ever made?

[Capetonian]

I maintain my assertion that what counts is the result, that a particularly nasty known criminal was taken out by the forces of law in a planned and well-executed operation.

More like this, please.

[Boac]

known criminal

- I'm sure you are aware of the big problems the internet brings where 'fake news' is disseminated, so can I ask you to give a reference to the 'known criminal activities' of this person to support your statements - so we can have 'real news'?

Whilst I am quite prepared to believe he has probably committed several offences in law and is a genuinely 'nasty piece of work', I am not aware of any conviction (one case dismissed is all I can find), and I think we should all strive to be factual on this forum (where applicable). In your posts you assert certain knowledge of criminal activity - good stuff if it is right - but you also suggest that 3 bullets in the chest might be appropriate for driving an uninsured car! 7/1/2017 0002

Who cares why he was stopped? Maybe his car wasn't insured.

what counts is the result

- could well have been Mr Hitler's and the Yorkshire Ripper's point of view, of course, and is remarkably short-sighted.

[Capetonian]

We'll just have to remain in disagreement.
I don't believe in pussyfooting around and treating these filth with kid gloves and am happy to see them taken out.
If you think your approach leads to a safer society for us all, that's where our views diverge