Just another school shooting, yawn.

[PHXPhlyer]

There seems to be, more or less two distinct types involved in gun violence.
Those who, as Dushan says, "attack schools, churches, and movie theaters. " I might add concerts and other open air events.
The other group are the crooks, lowlifes, gangbangers, etc. These use guns for robbery, intimidation, retaliation, etc. What they both have in common is not complying with the gun laws.
Probably more than two thirds of the people arrested for drug, gang, or human trafficking offences are prohibited possessors.
There's the problem. I wish I had a solution to offer.

PP

[EA01]

Exactly! What needs to be done is to teach firearms handling and target practice as part of regular high school curriculum.

Why is this not taught in the home then? Like manners, good behaviour, not stealing, not running red lights, not robbing shops....not shooting innocent children???

Leaving it to a school (ergular high school curriculum) to teach that sort of stuff seems very socialist state stuff to be honest....requiring the state to indoctrinate behaviours...is....ugly..... but if you think requiring the state to teach people right from wrong is the way to go......you go for it!! China does it....Russia too...so you may be on to a good thing!!

[EA01]

This is obvious stuff...and I'm a little miffed as to why there is any arguement....

School shooting of innocent children,...made possible by the laws of the land....no arguement...all above board and perfectly legal was the process of the perpetrator to obtain such advanced and sophisticateed weaponery, weaponery I should fancy was never imagined by the 'forefathers', everyting here was perfectly legal no?

The well armed Police response was...very much lacking...?

As awfull as it all is, I go to sleep everynight knowing atrocities like this (Mostly) simply do not happen outside of the US.,,,

[EA01]

If the trained cops cannot get it right...i do not expect random school teachers to....

[Dushan]

There is a reason why these idiots attack schools, churches, and movie theaters. They all have “no guns allowed” signs on them so the perps feel safe. You don’t see them going to a firing range on a Saturday afternoon to commit mayhem.

There was one a few years ago where someone walked past a police car and into a gun shop where the police officer happened to. He then proceeded to try an armed robbery and the shopkeeper and two others in the shop reacted faster and filled him full of the proverbial holes. The cop was way too slow.

It's worth noting that the NRA convention in Houston this weekend prohibits attendees from carrying guns on the premises, "for safety". That strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

When seconds count, cops are minutes away!

[Dushan]

Exactly! What needs to be done is to teach firearms handling and target practice as part of regular high school curriculum.

Why is this not taught in the home then? Like manners, good behaviour, not stealing, not running red lights, not robbing shops....not shooting innocent children???

Leaving it to a school (ergular high school curriculum) to teach that sort of stuff seems very socialist state stuff to be honest....requiring the state to indoctrinate behaviours...is....ugly..... but if you think requiring the state to teach people right from wrong is the way to go......you go for it!! China does it....Russia too...so you may be on to a good thing!!

Your point is valid in as much it is not the state’s job to raise our children, however when 8-year olds get arrested in school because they made a toy gun from a bagel then we have to change the attitude of the school system to treat guns as tools rather than to prohibit them.

Ther was a time when high schools had firing ranges in the basement and you could bring your air rifle to shop class to fix it with the aid of the teacher. We didn’t have mass school shootings, then

[Dushan]

This is obvious stuff...and I'm a little miffed as to why there is any arguement....

School shooting of innocent children,...made possible by the laws of the land....no arguement...all above board and perfectly legal was the process of the perpetrator to obtain such advanced and sophisticateed weaponery, weaponery I should fancy was never imagined by the 'forefathers', everyting here was perfectly legal no?

The well armed Police response was...very much lacking...?

As awfull as it all is, I go to sleep everynight knowing atrocities like this (Mostly) simply do not happen outside of the US.,,,

So you don’t live in Norway ether?

[Dushan]

If the trained cops cannot get it right...i do not expect random school teachers to....

“Trained” cops follow “procedures”, armed teacher would have adapted his/her response according to the situation at hand.

But more importantly had the perp know that the teacher might be armed it is highly unlikely that he would have entered the school (the teacher needn’t be armed, just the possibility that he might be is enough).

[boing]

This is not a matter of how well you protect your schools or what type of gun you can buy. This is a battle for the minds of our youth and the operating of our society and it is not just an American problem.

Here is the question which must be answered. Why, when the rules of firearm ownership have not changed much over the last 54 years have the number of incidents involving firearms apparently increased to such an extent? The relative number of firearms in American society has not changed that much. The rules have not changed but people have. What social degradation has put the idea in people's heads, notably our youth, that the only way you can resolve your emotional problems is by going out and killing a bunch of people?

Make yourself a list, tick the boxes.
Violent video games?
Violent films?
Reduced discipline in schools?
Reduced parental discipline and control?
The fact that two parents need to work to provide a decent, or the desired, family income?
The fact that society in general now accepts more irresponsible behaviour because we now have generations of irresponsible adults?
Too much pressure to succeed, by someones else's definition, in life?
Youth's pessimism for their possibilities in life?
etc, etc

Yes, we have problems that can be partially solved by stronger legislation and greater punishments but this is not going to solve our problems in the long term. If we were only dealing with infrequent isolated incidents the stronger legislation could be expected to cap the number of events but if you have an ever increasing number of mentally maladjusted youth appearing then any regulations you create are going to be drowned by the shear volume of events. We have to deal with the fundamental problem. The diagnosis is a simple matter but do you give aspirin to remove the symptoms or operate to solve the problem?

This idea of a more self-disciplined society has, of course, been broached many times before. Is it even possible to put a Genii back in the bottle? Officialdom seems incapable of doing anything to deal with the basic problem except to call for increasingly ineffectual laws. Parents don't seem to be able to raise children anymore. The application of discipline in schools has been reduced. Where is Lee Kuan Yew when you need him?

My (futile) dream would be a return to something like the American fifties. In those days the US had a strong economy based on manufacturing in country, the husband's income alone could support the family, employer provided health care insurance was the standard, schools still enforced disciple and parents supported this disciple, courts meted out applicable punishments and crime was treated seriously. None of these condition exist now.


.

.

[boing]

EAO1

We really must examine your claims.

School shooting of innocent children,...made possible by the laws of the land....no arguement...all above board and perfectly legal was the process of the perpetrator to obtain such advanced and sophisticateed weaponery, weaponery I should fancy was never imagined by the 'forefathers', everyting here was perfectly legal no?

No, school shootings are not made possible by the laws of the land, the laws forbid them.

Yes, the perp did purchase the guns legally, so do hundreds of thousands of other Americans but they do not use the guns in crimes. The problem here was that the background check is not deep or sophisticated enough to trap this sort of individual, it needs to be changed but, for example, the very liberals that say mental health problems should prevent gun ownership are exactly the same people who say a person's mental health problems should not be made public to prevent discrimination. Take your pick, you can't have both.

The guns involved are not any new sophisticated weaponry. Very similar firearms were disposed of by the US Government itself in great volumes and sold to Americans almost immediately after WW2. In fact, for many years there was actually a government program to sell excess government firearms to the public (the Civilian Marksmanship Program). The biggest change in gun technology has been the use of aluminium and plastic to replace heavy steel. Since both aluminium and plastic are both more simple and cheaper to produce with a black finish this is why the colour (?) is used, not to make them look more scary.

More an historical note but the Founding Fathers did actually recognise the civilian population might need to rise against the government periodically. In that case they would hardly have restricted civilian ownership of weapons to those inferior to military weapons thus immediately putting the civilian population at a great disadvantage. The concept is not logical.

.

[PHXPhlyer]

To add to Boing's list...
Replica air soft and paintball guns.
These are made to resemble actual guns, pistols and assault rifles, with only an orange stripe around the tip of the barrel. These are usually removed to add more authenticity to the "gun".
The kids then go out and brandish then and sometimes shoot the unsuspecting with them.
A new trend is the firing of gel balls that are much like the hydration aids for plants. They absorb water and expand to about a quarter inch or more. They are then shot from paintball guns or similar. Just to up the ability to inflict pain they are frozen before use.
These kids then risk being shot by an armed citizen or hair trigger police.
It starts early. I was shooting cap pistols playing cowboys and Indians from the age of 5 or so emulating Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, and John Wayne.
Luckily, we lived in a rural area so didn't run around in parks pretending to shoot people.
Bottom line...the replica guns are too realistic and as the kids get older they want the real things.

PP

[llondel]

But more importantly had the perp know that the teacher might be armed it is highly unlikely that he would have entered the school (the teacher needn’t be armed, just the possibility that he might be is enough).

That depends, if the perp doesn't expect to survive the experience it may just mean that teachers are high priority targets in case they're armed.

Just to show it can occasionally happen...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236

A US woman has fatally shot a man who opened fire on a crowd of people with a semi-automatic rifle in Charleston, West Virginia.

Dennis Butler, a 37-year-old with an extensive criminal history, was killed after he targeted a group of around 40 people attending a birthday party.

[EA01]

Hmm,....maybe so...

[EA01]

Probably true..

[Dushan]

Probably true..

There are 300 million firearms in hands of law-abiding Americans. If those guns were a problem you’ll know about it.

The problem is not the gun. The problem is a criminal using it.

[John Hill]

The problem is not the gun. The problem is a criminal using it.

The killer at the school (Salvador Ramos) was not a criminal until he was able to buy a gun(s).

[EA01]

Um....we know about it (he was a criminal) by way of dead school children, its always the same, has been for decades.....has been since sandy hook I'm very much sad about poor young innocent children..

But I also accept that 60 odd poor random peoples lives were cut short in Las Vegas too....

Fortunately I do not live amongst it,...I've close family who were living in the US get the f&ck out of the US as soon as thry could...

There may well be 300 million firearms in hands of Americans, law abiding or not, but it seems only in the US there is a repetitive occurance of school shootings, I think that is very tragic and dreadfull, but I also accept that is what the populace is prepared to accept....far be it from me to protect innocent young lives in a foreign land,....as it would be to do it in Afghanistan...

[EA01]

So,...uh....leave you to it....?? Is the next massacre of innocent children in Baghdad or in Boulder Hill, Illinois???

[Dushan]

The problem is not the gun. The problem is a criminal using it.

The killer at the school (Salvador Ramos) was not a criminal until he was able to buy a gun(s).

Buying a gun does not make you a criminal. I buy a lot of guns and I am not a criminal.

He was a criminal long before he bought the guns because he bought them with intent to commit a crime.

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

He was a criminal long before he bought the guns because he bought them with intent to commit a crime.

So to my mind that means that tighter controls need to be in place. Here you can buy a air gun but to buy a real gun not only do you have to be a citizen but there is a restricted number of licences issued per year.And then you have to be vetted by the police.