60 years of attack-free peace

[BenThere]

OK, so if this is the case in violence-prone America, what is your argument against eliminating gun-free zones so as to make us even safer?


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... -be-armed/

We can deal with sanctuary cities another day.

[Dirk]

Bona fides needed
http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/07/21/big-falsehoods-an-updated-guide-to-andrew-breit/168051

[BenThere]

Dirk, you posted a link to an extreme left-wing site that didn't address anything regarding my original post other than it doesn't like Breitbart. Is that all you've got?

[500N]

As a general rule, civvies will go for the target of least resistance.

It doesn't only apply to mass murder, thieves, armed hold up merchants etc, all the same.


IF you were planning an event like some have carried out and you had two choices, one where the people
are unarmed or one where you have the likes of AA, RGB and myself who would more than likely
fight back / shoot back ?

Everyone, military, civvies, goes for the weakest link.

As for everyone armed, forget it, never going to happen in the US even though more and more
states are going OC/CCW allowed, you will never have some schools / unis allow firearms to be
carried, open or concealed.

[BenThere]

The irrefutable truth in the US is that where people are allowed to arm themselves for protection, and carry for the protection of themselves and others, the rate of violent gun deaths are reduced.

As I live in a region that hosts savages who commit violence against innocent citizens on a regular basis, I choose to be armed. Is that not a reasonable position to take?

[500N]

Oh, absolutely it is.

I will add that choosing to be armed should be accompanied by training in the use of firearm,
both so you can safely use it and be accurate.

And in addition (I don't know if you have had military training) but you need to get (IMHO) to the point
where it is just muscle memory that allows you to draw and shoot, not fumbling and thinking "oh, this
is a person, do I really want to shoot them".

The mindset of "it's just a target" for anything that bleeds is a good one.

[BenThere]

My cursory USAF periodical qualification requirements on first a .38 revolver and later on a 9mm semi pretty much sum up the formal training I've had. I did shoot expert on both weapons back in the day, but as I've aged and practiced less I realize my skills have seriously eroded.

I'm pretty sure I can grab my Kimber 1911 .45 semi in the dark and make it deliver its rounds where I want them to go up to 50 feet or so. That is my primary self-defense and it lives under my bed. My wife knows how to fire it, but is not really qualified. Now that I don't live half my life away from home, being newly retired, that's not so much an issue. On my list is to visit the range more often, take some recurrent training, and be better overall with my primary weapon.

I also have a 5 round 12 gage pump shotgun and an 18 round .22 semi rifle placed strategically around the residence. I think we've covered the bases at home. In my suburban development of about 1,000 homes at the edges of both Detroit and Ann Arbor, I would estimate 800 of the homes are armed. It's a strongly Republican neighborhood. Crime is zero. I want to keep it that way. The 2nd Amendment, and taking advantage of it, I think, is the best way to do that.

Foolishly, I let my Michigan concealed carry permit expire and now have to take the course again and reapply. Oh well, I need the training anyway. It's just that in the mean time, I have to travel into Detroit from time to time unarmed, and if you are white and your car has a flat or breaks down on a Detroit street or freeway and you are unarmed, you are in mortal danger.

[500N]

BenThere

Now you are one who sounds like you have all bases covered, good on you.

[Alisoncc]

BenThere I am so pleased that you have been able to find statistics to support your paranoia. It must be very comforting when you are lying in your bed of a night clutching your revolver to your chest, ready to do battle with anyone who might be hiding under your bed. Just make sure you have the safety on, wouldn't want you shooting your toes off would we.

[BenThere]

It must be very comforting when you are lying in your bed of a night clutching your revolver to your chest, ready to do battle with anyone who might be hiding under your bed.

Where did you ever get that idea, Alison? Are you trying to ridicule or caricature me with the labels of paranoia or as one likely to shoot my own toes? Aren't we supposed to play the ball here?

But go on, critique my personal self-defense strategy logically. But do consider where I live and the rights I have to self-defense.

[Chuks]

"The irrefutable truth in the US is that where people are allowed to arm themselves for protection, and carry for the protection of themselves and others, the rate of violent gun deaths are reduced." Where is it that the rate is reduced, Ben, and relative to earlier years or relative to some other place?

500N, you are going to rely on muscle memory for that "shoot/no shoot" decision?! Do "you [really] need to get (IMHO) to the point
where it is just muscle memory that allows you to draw and shoot, not fumbling and thinking "oh, this
is a person, do I really want to shoot them". [sic]

That could become awkward when it comes to domestic surprises, explaining to the rozzers why you recently emptied a magazine into the cleaning lady who was not expecting to find you in and loaded for bear. "It was muscle memory, Officer ... nothing to do with me making a decision, really."

[boing]

Of course, everyone in the US is paranoid ---- how about prepared as in "with fire-extinguisher etc".

71-Year-Old Chicago Man Shot While Watering the Lawn

Fellow watering the grass near the street, two kids ride up on bicycles and proceed to rob him, he resists and one of them shoots him.
They might have got $10 if the were lucky.

http://time.com/4483658/elderly-man-shot-lawn-chicago/
.

[500N]

No, the decision to shoot is mental, the muscle memory relates to the physical aspect of drawing or shouldering and aiming.

You should know that.

The aspect of pulling the trigger is a (for me) combination of both in that once the "picture" (sight picture) looks good and
the signal sent it is automatic what follows with finger etc. The "sight picture" aspect is quite interesting when the thing
is moving / running and you have to lead the target, you "know" whether it is right or not, well, at least I do.

[boing]

Sorry x-over post.

Chuks,
Whilst your grammar may be excellent I suspect you knowledge of combat shooting is almost non-existent.

I do not think that 500N used quite the correct terminology but it is certainly true that once the decision is made to shoot muscle memory takes over. In a confrontation your adversary will almost certainly have you at a disadvantage since, presumably, he is planning and attack and you will be on the defensive. If you are facing an already aimed gun your only hope is to move like crazy and draw your weapon while your adversary is surprised - this may work with a comparative novice. Your draw and shot will need to be on the order of one second which is possible for a lightly dressed man with a good holster. If you have heavy outer clothing on you had better start begging.

.

[Chuks]

I should know that from this, "it is just muscle memory that allows you to draw and shoot, not fumbling and thinking "oh, this
is a person, do I really want to shoot them" [sic]? Going by your grammar, you are pretty much leaving the thinking out of it, 500N.

Boing, "me" recent knowledge of combat shooting was gained down-range! So, how many times have you been shot at, and how narrowly were you missed? Tell me a war story, do ....

[500N]

I do not think that 500N used quite the correct terminology but it is certainly true that
once the decision is made to shoot muscle memory takes over.

Boing

Can you expand, what is the correct terminology that I should use and / or what did I use that was wrong ?

(Happy to be corrected, not taking it as a criticism )

[boing]

500

You covered it in your second post simultaneous with mine.

No, the decision to shoot is mental, the muscle memory relates to the physical aspect of drawing or shouldering and aiming.

Chuk's post conveniently took "just muscle memory that allows you to draw and shoot," to imply a lack of thought on the decision of whether to shoot or not. Your second post clarifies.


.

[500N]

Thanks

It's funny, when shooting something that is running, you know as soon as you pull the trigger
whether you are going to hit it or not. You know when you are "on song" so to speak.

It is also interesting, as you get better (at shooting), it becomes such a smooth motion / action.
Well, I have noticed it for me.

[BenThere]

Where is it that the rate is reduced, Ben, and relative to earlier years or relative to some other place?

You can't have posted that with a straight face, Chuks. Just Google the highest murder rate cities and look for the gun control correlation. I'm confident you're capable of that. Places with little or no gun control include Vermont, with which you should be familiar. Get it?

[boing]

500N
Very true.
You have probably read "Zen and the Art of Archery. I think it is something similar. You spend ages trying to control a trigger then suddenly realize one day that you are making the trigger pull totally unconsciously. You only remember acquiring the sights but not pulling the trigger.

You see something the same in flying. Early on you spend all your time trying to "think" about how you should do something and then at some point it becomes "no think just do".

.